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LETS TALK ABOUT ALL-IN PRE-FLOP
35 2011-06-26 20:31:11
I have seen several blogs commenting about how many players go all-in pre-flop, and asking why?
I want to take a few minutes to look at this from a little different angle.
First, let me say, "As a poker player, I can't stand having 3-4-or even 8-9 pre-flop all-ins" In fact I refere to this as "Pokertard Pingo"
BUT, When I step back from being "A poker player" and really break down what these first second and third hand all-in fests are, I come up with some surprising facts.
Lets start with some basic information about when and where we are most likely to run into this kind of play.
Online.
Free Rolls, or very low buy in sit-n-gos and tourneys.
Very early in the game, 1st hand being the most likely time to have the most players going all-in pre-flop.
The higher the buy in, and the more hands into a game the less you should incounter this.
The reason for this is very simple.The players have very very little to lose. Little or no money invested, not more then a minute or two of time spent. NOTHING.
Now lets weigh that against what they have to gain,
If everyone else at the table is actually playing poker they would all fold when the first player goes All-in Pre-flop, they steal the blinds.
If there are other players at the table who think like them, they will call, THE MORE CALLERS THE BETTER, and heres why, lets say we all start with 1500 chips,against 1 caller I can double my money, BUT against 6 callers I can turn my 1500 into 10500. HUGE REWARD.LITTLE OR NO INVESTMENT.
Now another thing having more callers does is dilute the better starting hands, the simple truth is players (even pokertard pingo players) are more likely to go/call all-in pre-flop with the better starting hands. The more 10-Aces dealt pre-flop the more callers you'll have,BUT what does that really mean? It means, the more callers there are the more likely they need each others cards, if 3 callers have 10's they don't have 3 outs to pair up, they have 1 out, and if they catch it everyone else pairs to.
THE MORE CALLERS THE STRONGER ANY TWO CARDS BECOME.
With 4 or more all-in callers hands like low pairs, any suited connectors, mid-hi suited cards, become more and more playable.
So with 5 all-in callers you can win 5 times your stack, lose NO investment, and with that many callers almost any two cards are only a few percentage points away from even,( Instead of 5 people with 20% chances, you have 5 people with approx 15%-30% chances)
This experiment is what really opened my eyes.
Take a deck of cards and deal two cards for 5-8 players (Just deal face up) then deal 5 common cards, then see which position wins, Do this 30-or better yet 100 times and see what results you get.
With enough callers almost any two cards have decent odds, HUGE REWARD, little cost. It is actually a LOT better bet then just about anything else you will ever find.
Is it gambling? HELL YES! Is it a sound bet? It can be...Is it Poker? NOT even close.
Any comments or questions are always welcome.
I am just saying lol
I want to take a few minutes to look at this from a little different angle.
First, let me say, "As a poker player, I can't stand having 3-4-or even 8-9 pre-flop all-ins" In fact I refere to this as "Pokertard Pingo"
BUT, When I step back from being "A poker player" and really break down what these first second and third hand all-in fests are, I come up with some surprising facts.
Lets start with some basic information about when and where we are most likely to run into this kind of play.
Online.
Free Rolls, or very low buy in sit-n-gos and tourneys.
Very early in the game, 1st hand being the most likely time to have the most players going all-in pre-flop.
The higher the buy in, and the more hands into a game the less you should incounter this.
The reason for this is very simple.The players have very very little to lose. Little or no money invested, not more then a minute or two of time spent. NOTHING.
Now lets weigh that against what they have to gain,
If everyone else at the table is actually playing poker they would all fold when the first player goes All-in Pre-flop, they steal the blinds.
If there are other players at the table who think like them, they will call, THE MORE CALLERS THE BETTER, and heres why, lets say we all start with 1500 chips,against 1 caller I can double my money, BUT against 6 callers I can turn my 1500 into 10500. HUGE REWARD.LITTLE OR NO INVESTMENT.
Now another thing having more callers does is dilute the better starting hands, the simple truth is players (even pokertard pingo players) are more likely to go/call all-in pre-flop with the better starting hands. The more 10-Aces dealt pre-flop the more callers you'll have,BUT what does that really mean? It means, the more callers there are the more likely they need each others cards, if 3 callers have 10's they don't have 3 outs to pair up, they have 1 out, and if they catch it everyone else pairs to.
THE MORE CALLERS THE STRONGER ANY TWO CARDS BECOME.
With 4 or more all-in callers hands like low pairs, any suited connectors, mid-hi suited cards, become more and more playable.
So with 5 all-in callers you can win 5 times your stack, lose NO investment, and with that many callers almost any two cards are only a few percentage points away from even,( Instead of 5 people with 20% chances, you have 5 people with approx 15%-30% chances)
This experiment is what really opened my eyes.
Take a deck of cards and deal two cards for 5-8 players (Just deal face up) then deal 5 common cards, then see which position wins, Do this 30-or better yet 100 times and see what results you get.
With enough callers almost any two cards have decent odds, HUGE REWARD, little cost. It is actually a LOT better bet then just about anything else you will ever find.
Is it gambling? HELL YES! Is it a sound bet? It can be...Is it Poker? NOT even close.
Any comments or questions are always welcome.
I am just saying lol
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Viewing 1-20 of 35 comments
Therein lies the problem BD you don't see alot of the old school here anymore. Ironman was inactive along time and it refreshing to see him back. I trimmed out my friends list 6 months ago down to 46 users and most of them were blue birds and active here!! If I trimmed them again I would only have 10 friends or so. Very sad reality IMO. I also miss Topcat greatly. He, like Ironman brought sanity and leadership along with a sense of responsibilty to the site and it's people that added greatly to it's content!! Are we in the Genisis, Exodus, or the Armageddon of Raibirds??? Only time will tell...........................DL
2011-06-27 01:31:11
I also wonder about why one player (not even in the blinds) would call an allin attempt at stealing blinds and antes. I get QQ late position last night. 10 10 calls and hit 578 flop. Turn 9. River J for a straight. So sickening to me.
2011-06-27 01:31:11
adding to the early stages of a tourney, especially frolls, if you hit the first hand lottery it makes it worth spending that much time to win a dollar...and you can't be put out by a donk call as easily...
2011-06-27 01:31:11
I'm glad i came back to take another look here, lots of interesting comment, i have to say i like this more simplfied way of dicussing the game lol thanks for taking the time to set up the hands Ironman, it was an interesting read
2011-06-27 01:31:11
LOL I can relate Iron man I have a poker kitty that sets at my elbow and admonishes me for truly donky plays on occasion!! Imagine getting hissed at when you shuv KQ suited UTG late in a SNG just because it's late and you're tired of these idiots.............
2011-06-27 01:31:11
precisely why I dont like tournys with re-buys and add-ons
2011-06-27 01:31:11
WOW Aces heads up has a better chance of winning than against 6 players? I need to write that down. This is good stuff. Keep the stats coming
2011-06-27 01:31:11
2011-06-27 01:31:11
Thanx for the insightful blog. Your exercise with the deck of cards is almost EXACTLY the same exercise that I use to try to tell people about the natures of Texas Holdem when they yell "RIGGED" when they suffer a bad beat. I would be interested in knowing when the hand was won in your exercise. I am willing to bet that it was won on the river MOST of the time. And probably was won with a miracle card. Thanx again
2011-06-27 01:31:11
isn't that why all of us are here? that is why I'm here...well that and sweetthang invited me, who I haven't seen forever :(
2011-06-27 01:31:11
Agreed Ironman!! Thats all basically true!! And alot of those same theories expand thereselves into the rest of the game online and IMO tilt the odds even further away from what we could expect live and what type of play we can expect from people, MOST of which aren't familar with poker at all as it is played live. Is it flat out rigged? No. Is it ANYTHING like live play???? LOL Absolutely not!! So we get the wide range of opinions about online poker and it's validity and the fight ensues while mostly our opinions aren't really that far apart........... Just my humble opinion...........DL
2011-06-27 01:31:11
i too miss topcat very much...he was one of my first friends here..and throughout the time he was here he was a true gentleman in every way....a teacher...and a genuinely giving soul...i wish him only the best of all things wherever he lays his hat..:):)
nothing wrong with a blog covering the fundamentals...as does this one...its a sound poker blog...
as for the shape of the earth...i have always subscribed to the ' flat ' theory..and may i add that it is supported by four elephants walking clockwise round the back of a giant turtle...the turtle is swimming through space looking for a mate...
much research has been and is currently being carried out to determine the sex of the turtle...while this may not seem an important detail in itself...come the day when the great turtle does find its mate...i would rather it be male..for obvious reasons...
de chelonia mobile..:D:D....
2011-06-27 01:31:11
Gee I did read the whole blog and not one time was the word "online" or "live play" mentioned. But after all of your discussions maybe you will catch up to the rest of us and know that online play is different than live play
2011-06-27 01:31:11
Too late Dave
We have already had the Round vs Flat discussion. LOL I'm sure you can find it in his blog history.
2011-06-27 01:31:11
O.K. Since I wrote this blog I took my own suggestion and got out my cards.
I dealt 30 hands ( shuffling each time) to 7 seats.
Here are the actual results.
I will list each seat followed by the hole cards they won with, then thier winning hand.
Seat #1.
A-7off 2 Pr A's-7's
J-3off 2 Pr J's-6's
10-Joff Trip J's
Q-6off 2Pr Q's-10's
Seat #2.
5-6off Trip 5's
A-9Hearts Pr. A's
A-6Clubs A high flush
Seat #3.
K-8off Trip 8's
Q-9off Pr. Q's
10-2off 2 Pr. 10's-2's
A-7Heart A High Flush
3-3off Trip 3's
Seat #4
A-Joff Pair J's
9-Joff Pair of 9's
K-8off Pr. K's
7-6off Pr. 7's
Seat #5
4-10off 2 Pr. 10's-4's
9-10off 2 Pr. 9's-10's (Beat pocket Aces)
4-KSpades Full House 5's over K's
Q-JHearts Trip J's
K-9off Pair K's
Seat #6
2-7 off Trip 2's
10-Joff Pair 10's J high kicker
A-8off Pr. A's
8-8off Full House 10's over 8's
Seat #7
9-4off Trip 9's
J-7off Pr. J's
Q-4Dia. K High Flush
7-8off Trip 8's
A-6off Full House A's over 7's
This is a perfect example of what I was talking about here.
2011-06-27 01:31:11
I have a simple solution for your personal demon.
Get a Dog ;) LOL
2011-06-27 01:31:11
The fact that you have to write about it means you felt you had to do something lol. Your elementary poker blog is what is funny throughout all of this. Enjoy your insightfull discussion. Maybe someone who has never heard of poker might find this all usefull. Have a nice day
2011-06-27 01:31:11
bren?
1000's of people havent commented on this blog, and while I always find that odd LOL ( Why wouldnt everyone care about what I post ? LOL) I have to admit that I never thought others would LOL
Seriosly, There is absolutily no reason for any drama, Im inviting any and all thoughts and dont mind at all if someone has a view I either missed or see differently.. This is an attempt to understand something and I always love learning.
Thanks everyone
2011-06-27 01:31:11
Is it gambling? HELL YES! Is it a sound bet? It can be...Is it Poker? NOT even close.
This is where is where the debate comes in if poker is skill or luck .. personally i like to think poker is skill but the online world of poker has made me think differently lol..not to say that those with skill wont' in the long term come out ahead of those who base their game on gambling, but i think if you wanna play games of skill, keep it live :)
2011-06-27 01:31:11
Right again Ironman!! The occurance of situations where X player will call an all in with 10-10 online are much more frequent than live thus skewing the action greatly and creating levels of play that cannot be expected live.The action tho seems to "create" the luck factor that happens so much more online than live and the existance of "pattern deals" that normally would never happen live. Thus creating those poor grizzled old players with furoughed brows that spout "Rigged" so often. IMO it's not that we consider it personally rigged against us so much as it just seems so foreign to what we are used to seeing live..........DL
2011-06-27 01:31:11
Viewing 1-20 of 35 comments